Episode 4: Sally Goldner – “How Do I Get Out? Where Do I Fit In?”

Sally Goldner – “How Do I Get Out? Where Do I Fit In?”

In the fourth episode of Twice Blessed, Sally Goldner (she/her) and I spoke about her work, modifying the holy days, pro wrestling, and being a kosher bisexual transgender cowgirl. This is also the final episode of the podcast for the year, happy Hanukkah to all! Transcript available from twiceblessedpodcast.com

[episode starts]

Shosh [voiceover] Hi everyone! Welcome to the fourth episode of Twice Blessed, a podcast about the lived experiences of gender and sexually diverse Jewish Australians. My name is Shoshana Rosenberg, I am a PhD student at the Centre for Human Rights Education at Curtin University which exists on Whadjuk Noongar Land in Perth, Western Australia. I’d like to acknowledge that this episode was created on the unceded lands of both the Whadjuk Nyoongar people and the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nations, otherwise known as Naarm, Birriranga, or Melbourne. I would like to pay my respect to the elders of these lands, past, present and emerging, and acknowledge that I have both a privilege and a responsibility to the Traditional Owners as a settler on their lands. Today’s episode is with Sally Goldner, co-founder of Transgender Victoria and an amazing all-around trans and bisexual advocate and educator. Sally and I talked about her work, modifying the holy days, pro wrestling, and being a kosher bisexual transgender cowgirl. I was very grateful to be squeezed in to Sally’s tight schedule, and even more grateful to leave with a sore stomach from all the laughter. So please enjoy this interview with Sally Goldner.

Shosh [interview] thanks so much for being part of this. So just to start off I’d love to hear a little bit about you what you do what your interests are that kind of thing.

Sally So Yeah Sally Goldner What do I do. I work mainly as a diversity educator with Transgender Victoria. I do other things with Transgender Victoria. I’m in a semi supervisory role as well. And I’ve kept up my accounting training and I’m still the Finance Officer and Treasurer. Nice Jewish girl. And also I’m on the committee of management of Transgender Victoria as well. And also I’m involved with Bisexual Alliance Victoria which does similar ish work but not on his bigger scale as yet. And although an exciting project just starting called the Bi Five which we can talk about.

Shosh Yeah. Yes please.

Sally And also involved in Trans Family which is a group for family members of trans and gender diverse people which I co facilitate the discussion group that happens once a month. Two days from time of recording on the fourth Saturday of each month here in Melbourne so that can get out to people.

Shosh Amazing.

Sally Yeah. Which has been a good story in itself.

Shosh Mm hmm.

Sally And apart from that I also do… Speaking of what I call the extended dance mix of my full story which covers more than gender identity and sexual orientation. And on a totally different note a sense of escapism I’m a fan of what’s euphemistically called Sports Entertainment i.e. World Wrestling Entertainment. Although I’m going to branch out and I’m going to New Japan Pro Wrestling I mean about two weeks from the time of this recording.

Shosh Cool cool cool. Um can you tell me a little bit more about the project the bi project that’s just started.

Sally yes so the bi five. As people I think are increasingly aware, but still some a lot of distance to travel… I see that bi still get to raise a lot or the issues are assumed to be the same as Lesbian and Gay which it isn’t. And there has of course been outright prejudice against bisexual people from heterosexual and elements of gay and lesbian. The horrible “get off the fence, make up your mind, you’re greedy”. No we’re not greedy we’re fussy. That sort of thing. And so the Bi Five’s aim is to build an audit tool and then pilot pilot that tool on three organizations of a different nature. One a broader community (I prefer that term to mainstream) service provider and a so-called LGBTI organization. Let’s see how much B there is. And one of our number had the really good idea of let’s work it onto an LGBTI corporate pride network and see how B inclusive they really are. So it’s a very exciting tool only just getting underway any and just hiring the main person at the moment. And so that is really good because I think it’s really important to you know get the the B up there and I’m getting some advance information that a large piece of broader community Australian  research now puts B as bigger than L and G which we’ve sort of begun to, we’ve seen bits at such as a survey of younger people in the UK a couple of years ago. However this would really put it on the map in Australia and all ages. But of course we had a huge response to the research led by Julia Taylor which had 2600 bi respondents. 2000 who were cisgender and 600 trans and gender diverse. So the binary is crumbling, hurray!

Shosh At long last.

Sally Yes may it dissolve into a sea of boiling something.

Shosh So that sounds really really exciting.

Sally Oh yeah yeah.

Shosh And like a huge undertaking as well.

Sally It is it’s exciting it’s a partnership between Bisexual Alliance Victoria, Drummond Street Services and Melbourne Bisexual Network. So Drummond Street’s the lead agency where Bi Alliance is the subcontractor and Melbourne Bi network is in as a partner on the steering committee. So very exciting. We’re not aware of such work been done in Australia and not a lot we can find in say the US or the UK which are the most likely leaders on this. So we’ll be very exciting to get this happening. And then one would hope of course having developed the audit tool that we would obviously be able to then get it out there and do more work with it either through funded or fee for service.

Shosh Great, amazing. So That’s a really fantastic bit of background I really appreciate that.

Sally Pleasure.

Shosh And so I’d love to hear a little bit from your kind of maybe as a starting point I’d love to hear a little bit about your sort of cultural and maybe your religious background whether Jewish or otherwise.

Sally So yeah. I am of two Jewish biological parents who were more on the progressive side and as far as I can know to go back to my great grandparents all jewish so  very much there. I don’t know a lot about things further back. So I know that my mom’s parents were probably in the middle they weren’t progressive or secular but they weren’t ultra orthodox and probably the same with dad’s. And of my four of some of my great grandparents I think there was a mix of orthodox and more progressive On mum’s side, I don’t know much about Dad’s side. In fact anything at all. But definitely there. So very much of Jewish background but had the interesting experience of spending all 13 years at school at an Anglican boys school.

 

Shosh Right.

Sally Yeah. Which.

Shosh Bit of a contrast point Maybe.

Sally Lots of contrasts on every level. I will be very fair and say that it was. There were moments of or homophobia in terms of the religious stuff. I remember year 10 1980 the priest taking as it was called Religious Studies, religious instruction, whatever… Said in this very fruity voice “There are homosexuals. These people are sick. They need our help.” And I if I didn’t I’d be honest and say I didn’t really know much about who I was back then but I knew something wasn’t right. I just thought that doesn’t sound right. It sounds pretty demeaning or something maybe a bit of… At the time I felt that maybe obviously there’s more hindsight and adult reasoning and those sorts of things. The whole school was not an pleasant experience for someone who deep down identified as a woman. I probably don’t. I don’t know how much to say about that. I mean could say lots but things like a huge emphasis on sport and a very limited range. So summer was mainly Cricket until one got to say late on high school where there was options of tennis, rowing and swimming. I was never really good at any of them. I’m not a reflex person so that rules out batting at cricket and tennis. I never really got swimming and I was obviously, whilst I’m tall I wasn’t bulky enough to be a rower and didn’t want to put in all that effort. One of my best friends did it. He was just practising four nights a week and would never get home from the practice till seven then I had to do his homework anyway. So that was the summer or most of we’ll say my day first term of the three term year. Winter was overwhelmingly Aussie Rules some people did rugby league somebody to hockey a couple did cross country. But you had to be really good to do the cross country. And I’m not really a team sport person either I’m very strongly an introvert so that sort of interaction is not my thing. And so I didn’t enjoy that and there was this huge emphasis on sport because I found out about three years ago when the principal passed away. He’s obituary was in The Age. His grand plan was to win all the sport championships to build morale internally and be a great marketing point. And he became principal after my parents had pre enrolled me if I could use that year when I was little they got me in for whenever they thought I was going to start and then the previous principal left and they weren’t happy but they stuck with it. It was a very in masculine terms it was toxic masculinity, competitive academically. If you weren’t in that about the top five or 10 percent you weren’t good enough. Lots of other things but on the faith side yeah there was that aspect. I will be fair and say they did try to teach some of the good parts of the New Testament. The things like you know countering greed and that parable in the New Testament about easier for a rich. What was it a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than get into heaven or something.

Shosh It got easier it’s easier for.

Sally A poor man.

Shosh Yeah poor man to get into heaven no oh no.

Sally Whichever one is the one a bad one. The eye of the needle in heaven anyway.

Shosh It’s easier for a camel to go with the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.

Sally We got there. So they did put that one across and they did put put the one across about laying down one’s life for their friends. Which is not of course literally physically it’s about giving. and I think they did have overall the right principles of Christianity and of course in this day and age when we see so called fundamentalist Christians who well I often say Jesus must be not just turning in his grave he’s doing triple somersault in his grave at how his religion is being desecrated.  and so-called fundamentalist Christians, to me the modern day Pharisees and moneylenders in the temple… And so yeah there were good parts of Christianity. Judaism… There was no mention of anything that today we’d call LGBTIQA+. I lasted out Sunday school until just after my bar mitzvah. I didn’t even finish  the last eight weeks of the year in 1978. I did the bar mitzvah and just thought “enough”. It was pretty boring. That is Sunday school was. Bar mitzvah though was very critical as a Jewish trans woman in that you know I couldn’t come of age as a as a Jewish boy into a man because I just wasn’t. It had no connection for me whatsoever.

Shosh [voiceover] hi there! So for those who are unaware, a Bar Mitzvah, and its woman-equivalent Bat Mitzvah, are Jewish ceremonies that happen at ages 13 and 12 respectively, and mark the beginning of that person’s manhood or womanhood. The ceremony focuses on the person reading out a section of the Torah, called a Drash, usually at a synagogue and in front of family and friends. It’s one of the most significant Jewish rituals, and generally comes with a huge and often quite formal celebration. It was very interesting for me to hear a few of my participants, both cisgender and transgender, describe their aversion or discomfort with participating in this tradition. It seems that for a lot of people, Bar / Bat Mitzvahs marks an uncomfortably binary move through gender, from the content of the Drash to the dress code, which is suits for boys, dresses for girls. It’s easy to see why a lot of people I have interviewed really bumped their heads against such a strongly gendering experience.

Sally [interview] And there were also other things. There was some of the hypocrisies about all you’ve got to make sure you give money to Israel that sort of thing that was shoved onto us a bit. and I am not… I tend to stay out of Middle East politics. I feel as somebody who is generally on the progressive end I mean I’m not… I’m just pro peace. And the moment I say I’m Jewish everyone goes “oh you’re occupying Palestinian lands” and I find I don’t get a fair hearing. So I tend to steer clear of it. But there wasn’t naturally any of that sort of thing at Sunday School or growing up. None of those sorts of debates. My parents put me on to, paid for me to go on the Academy trip at the end of 1983  run by Australasian Union of Jewish students. That was okay. It was a good tourist thing but it didn’t have a huge amount of religious connection in that sense. And there was some double standard moments that had turned up from time to time but they were just nice people to spend. Well seven weeks in Israel and Egypt and two weeks afterwards whistling around Europe on a European tour. But I didn’t have a lot of connection to my own sense of, I’ll use “faith”, belief in God. I would now call myself a theist,a word that seems to have gone by the wayside a bit. But I believe in some sort of spirit creative force universal power whatever you want to call it. It’s not the proverbial old white man with a beard or any person of any gender with a beard or of any age. So yeah I believe in a force but I don’t… It does it’s not a pity a particular one. And that’s my belief systems. Everyone has a right to their own just don’t force it, Force it onto anyone against their will. That sort of thing. So that was the sort of early faith and religion stuff and that remained after school finished. It was pretty… Not much a part of my life at all. It would be fair to say. I just didn’t really connect with it. I certainly didn’t go to any religious buildings of any sort or… But I wasn’t. I never really thought of myself as an atheist. For a time I might have thought of being agnostic but have pushed back as I say more to theist. In time which we’ll go through.

Shosh Yeah. And I’m wondering about that. So you said that you weren’t you didn’t go into any building so I think that means you like the synagogue in that sort of thing wasn’t a relevant part of your life.

Sally No I would be struggling to remember maybe apart from weddings and funerals if I went to synagogue at any time after Sunday school and a couple of bar mitzvahs around that time. people, Well I’ll say other boys about my age, or boys in inverted commas, I still have to work that out… assigned male at birth people, that’ll do. And so yeah no regular  attendance for any reason. And yeah obviously when other friends from Christian backgrounds for example got married. Yes in a church but not as part of my own proactive volition.

Shosh Mm hmm.

Sally would be the way to put it.

Shosh What about um I’m wondering what about like kind of in the home like did did you engage with any of the holidays or Customs or do you engage with any of the holidays are Customs now.

Sally So in the home growing up,yYes. Would always go to a wonderful great aunt for the Passover service. And I did like Passover.

Shosh Mm hmm.

Sally And she did good chicken soup darling. And it was that was always fun. And always, Never really, I still can only remember “eloheyno eloheyno” out of the whole “echad mi yode’a” thing.

Shosh Mm hmm.

Sally That’s the only line I could remember. So you’d sit there and say vaguely keep track of where we’re up to nine 10 11 12 and then come back to that again and everyone would join in. But I did like the gathering nature of it, the sense of community very much and I… I’m Leaping around a bit but nowadays I would see myself as culturally Jewish or part of a Jewish community. But not so much Maybe Jewish faith.

Shosh Yeah.

Sally And that’s a nice connection to have. an unlikely source of Jewish philosophy is one of the Arthur Hailey  books “Overload”, about… The central character’s An executive of a power company Nimrod Goldman. And he’s struggling as to whether to give his son a bar mitzvah. He’s got one grandfather who’s really Orthodox and one who abandoned Judaism for socialism. And he’s at a party bumps into a rabbi and the rabbi says “it’s not religion that keeps that Judaism together it’s a sense of community going back 3-5000 years”. And I think that’s a good call and I can understand that. And I feel that and I don’t want to lose that. So that’s really an important part of me. But you know I’m one of those people. Maybe as an introvert I carry my temple in my temple and I just like some quiet time by myself. In 1998 not long after I had affirmed my identity as a woman full time my true self. I got invited to the Jewish lesbian group’s Passover ceremony with its great focus on women rather than the traditional service which just looks at all the males involved. So the story of the importance of Miriam hiding Moses all that sort of thing. And it was quite wonderful as well as doing the spilling the 10 drops of wine for the traditional ten plagues they spilt another ten for modern plagues like racism homophobia sexism and then someone added oh wait we need an 11th for a plague of 1998 John Howard. And it  just had that touch of humor which I think sometimes is lacking. There was always there’s always a bit of humor I suppose. I opened the door for Elijah “hey you’re there”… Probably, Well that point we didn’t have a lot of mobile phones. Now we try to SMS Elijah. How does he get around. How does Elijah get around so quickly. Anyway!

Shosh It’s all the coffee. I’m sure.

Sally It’s all the coffee. So that was a really nice affirming thing. And it helped me reconnect with myself. I looked at lots of other full belief systems over the few next few years. I looked at sort of basic paganism and Wiccan, I like some of the elements of that, the connection to the elements of earth air fire water, And they’re part of me. But the rest just didn’t have the heartfelt connection. And gradually over time I settled on my belief system which I know I feel comfortable with which is just a belief in a invisible force. As a guy called it in 1910 a guy called William wattles. He wrote about the “formless stuff” and his book was unfortunately well legally plagiarized for the book The Secret.

Shosh Oh right.

Sally Yeah it’s pretty much the same ideas. They’ve just updated the language from 1910 quaint English. Although William Wattles was American. To a more modern look or feel and words so… But the principles are still much the same but I think the copyright on the book or patents expired so they can’t do anything about it. But that’s the words he used. They all make sense to me. And I think it’s just about that there is something that connects us and we can’t see it and maybe people lose their faith in it and that’s unfortunate. But I have tried to increase my faith and trust over time and that’s been a help. And there were nice things about Judaism as well on the advocacy front. I did get involved with the Jewish community council of Victoria’s reference group for Rainbow Communities for a few years. And things really settled when in 2014 was the first Pride Shabbat service in Melbourne at Temple Beth.

Shosh Right.

Sally Which was amazing. Very well organised and says something that normally the Friday night service there would get 50 people this one got 300.

Shosh Wow.

Sally That was amazing. Just people coming from everywhere and all joking “now, Now we’re going to synagogue voluntarily not being dragged along”.  There were childhood stories about whilst I went to that Christian school… And I’ll come back to those I’m jumping two topics here. But yeah the  first Jewish Passover was wonderful, Jewish pride Shabbat service sorry was wonderful. And I was given the honor I, amongst many, I read a minute and a half of it and and I really felt like that was a bat mitzvah. I finally came of age as a Jewish woman. It just felt so much better. And so it was a really good ritual to do and so I felt felt very connected that all of the parts of myself inside. And as I left they just said “Well you’re always welcome here” which is really nice. So I felt connected to that world. I didn’t need to go there as I said but I know it’s nice to have it.

Shosh Mm hmm.

Sally And that I could always rock along if I needed to and I’ve been… So there’s now been six services at Temple Beth and I’ve been to three… To four of them which has been wonderful. And it is it is a place that I can go and feel comfortable and welcome and happy and that sort of thing which is really enjoyable.

Shosh Yeah and I’m kind of wondering about that because a couple of times now you’ve sort of touched on Like the sort of overlap between your Jewishness and between your like gender and sexuality experiences. So I’d love to hear a little bit more about that.

Sally Yeah I suppose that that moment has made it feel really connected. I’m glad I also did what I did with the Jewish Community Council. I think it helped progress things. We found out… My personal opinion which I think is objective enough too is that I think the Jewish community in Melbourne is a pretty parallel sample to the broader Melbourne community. There are some nice progressive people who are inclusive. There are people who may not understand but are open to learning which is all we can ever ask. There are some Orthodox rabbis who might be Orthodox but they’re still willing to work something out and there are some Orthodox rabbis who still have the idea that homosexuality is a sin at the end and can’t do much about those. But I think though I did actually like the approach of the other Orthodox rabbis who said we can’t enforce the Scriptures selectively. And they said We know there are people driving their big shiny cars to synagogue on Friday night just before it gets dark and they’re not supposed to drive them home. But they said unless they come into synagogue waving the keys of their brand new BMW I’m not going to say anything about it. So I can’t criticise two guys or two women who walk in who I was thinking were gay and lesbian who come into synagogue and just sit there and pray. And I think that’s, I think that’s a very thoughtful approach. It may not be ideal it may not be celebratory but at least it’s not condemnatory. So I think there are the typical Jewish scholarly approach and I thought that was very very worthwhile. Whereas  I don’t really see that, that sort of approach, that thoughtful approach at the far end of Christianity. It sort of goes from a middling approach down to nothing very quickly. And so I think that was a nice moment. And yeah I just  feel very settled about my whole self now in terms of my faith and my gender and my sexual orientation. It just feels authentic, it feels calm, it feels connected which is really nice. And I suppose other things that have happened since 2014… One was now sadly my mom passed away just under a year ago and I hadn’t seen a lot of my extended family for some time and the funeral service up on the Gold Coast was at a more progressive Jewish synagogue and I felt very comfortable there. And as much as it was obviously a sad occasion, It was good to see lots of the family and reconnect with them and I know Mum would have liked that because her extended family she grew up was very important to her lot. All the cousins. So now I’ve got as we do it in this day and age mobile numbers and email addresses and Whatever else. I think that’s a nice connection to have and while sadly my uncle died in January this year and same thing again but that whilst there was lots of extended family there the sad moment that struck me was this was held at the orthodox facility Chevre Kadisha out at Springvale in Melbourne. And because I knew Dad was still struggling over mum’s death understandably I wanted to sit next to him. Of course we walk up and it’s woman on one side and men on the other and I’m stuck. And that was really awful and of course part of me doesn’t turn off just because it’s my uncle’s funeral I’m thinking “which side are non binary people going to go”. So yeah the Orthodox people are going to have to have some somehow come to terms with that idea. I was not… Didn’t have any grief or problems going into the women’s section and one of my cousin’s wives is a bit of a rebel and we were sitting there whispering silly remarks which I’d probably better not repeat. I don’t know maybe rolling jaffles down the aisle, kosher ones or something but… So at least I had someone comfortable to sit with. But yeah I was a bit sort of irritated that I couldn’t sit next to dad and be with him for the service. So I’m not sure if he’d bought a hip flask with him but anyway… So yeah there’s still some times where I’m reminded of my gender in orthodox circles but overwhelmingly for me personally the progressive circles that, I mean or secular, and the sort of advocacy circles are perfectly okay.

 

Shosh Mm hmm.

Sally Mm hmm.

Shosh And um I guess with that. So you know that those are really like feel like really big like sort of communal sort of affirming experiences. Is there anything about… Again maybe like your day to day practice or your sort of like… Your inner sense of understanding where your Jewishness and your gender and your sexuality meet as well.

Sally Mm hmm. Where do they meet…

Shosh If they meet I suppose.

Sally Well if they meet… I have to say I haven’t thought about it to be perfectly honest. I just… they all feel good and they feel connected but I have to say I’ve never thought of exactly how. Maybe I just feel like I’m me at last after working through so many layers and claiming parts of myself and unlearning the parts that didn’t fit. Not just gender but many other things. That I haven’t got that’s a layer that probably could work. But I know I’m happy as a Jewish trans and bi person, or to put together a song I wrote and have recorded at least on an audio form, Sorry on a video that I did a few years ago “Sally’s Story” that I am a kosher bisexual transgender cowgirl. And I like all the parts of myself so now. But I know intuitively they fit but maybe I just haven’t gone into the left brain analysis of exactly how they fit.

Shosh Mm hmm.

Sally That I’m just me.

Shosh I mean in a way that sounds very powerful because it sounds like it is that sense of completeness that you’ve been talking about.

Sally Yeah I feel I’ve felt more and more content as time has gone on in my life with all more and more aspects of it, Including faith. And I feel very settled. and you know I like I look at moon cycles, I feel that’s a part of me I’m probably well above astrology 101, I can pretty much name all 12 signs, know whether they’re earth air fire water, and have a reasonable understanding of when full and new moons are.  And the bits I fall down on are the what are the triangles and what are the squares and the conjuncts. But I think that that’s as you know astrology is a belief system it’s been around well longer than Judaism. Don’t tell the Jewish people that. And I think there’s a lot more to it and unfortunately it’s just been so commercialized by some of the forecasts you see in the paper which people the news people in newspapers said they would just make them up outright and then they blame astrology. No why don’t we blame tabloid newspapers? But that’s probably going off topic.

Shosh Oh I don’t know. I mean I am kind of interested in that… Pardon Me. I am sort of interesting because I did notice that you have pentacles in your earrings.

Sally I did. I put those on today for some reason. Yeah.

Shosh I so it I mean it feels like I don’t know it feels like you have a really unique sort of mesh of like.

Sally Yeah.

Shosh You know different position different life positions almost.

Sally I suppose I’m a very diverse intersectional person. Adding in all the bits of me.

Shosh Mm hmm.

Sally And there is some connection to those more natural elements. Maybe there’s a very autonomous part of me that likes this sort of Wiccan Pagan approach which doesn’t have so much structure. Whereas of course Orthodox Judaism, I mean not that I was ever Orthodox, is incredibly structured in where men and women have to sit, and what they can and can’t do etc. whereas there isn’t that sort of structure, control freak type of approach in belief systems like Wiccan pagan, those sorts of things.

Shosh You know that’s really interesting. That’s a really interesting point about. Yeah. You know that sort of like structure to like you know… Almost… Do you Feel like it’s more, do you feel like Wicca is more individual oriented as well.

Sally Yeah you can take the bits that you want and use them and mold them and no one’s going to tell you that you’re not doing the religion correctly or some silly thing like that. So very much so yeah.

Shosh So do you feel like again like this does that sort of again inform your sort of relationship with with gender and sexuality as well.

Sally Uh does Wicca do that…it Does to a little extent because I can feel, I feel incredibly welcome in the circles I’ve been there. Whereas sometimes I wonder about other circles. I think that I’m fortunate we’re in Melbourne that a lot of faith circles overall are… I wouldn’t say a lot, There are enough safe progressive, If I can use that term, spaces to go. But I do feel more at home there. Those sort of Wiccan and pagan belief systems were around before the more patriarchal systems that are Judaism and Christianity at their essence. They Are far more inclusive of gender and sexuality. I found they may have times people who practice them in very binary wise but overwhelmingly I found those faiths to be incredibly, spaces to be incredibly welcoming. And yeah there is of course you know Judaism can be, the faith can be very patriarchal. But Jewish circles can be… A couple of times some of the Jewish Community Council of Victoria LGBTI reference groups just, the males there had no awareness of the space they were taking up and even cisgender women, even people who were on the board and  just couldn’t get a word in and you know, it needed some better chairing of meetings and things like that. But generally… And that’s. But yeah. But is that the male dominated circles, that can happen anywhere way whether it’s the gay male community or, Perhaps not so much today, but it’s probably still a lot of say the corporate sector. Those sorts of circles can be very male dominated. And yeah that was an issue that I have faced in some Jewish circles that I haven’t seen as much of in those sort of Wiccan Pagan circles by any stretch.

Shosh Yeah. And again it’s some it’s that sort of it’s that sort of pastiche approach right to to where you kind of sit in the world. Yeah. And I sort of I wonder whether actually being gender diverse or sexually diverse is something that pushes you towards, you know, having to piece the puzzle yourself or find new pieces from different puzzles.

Sally Oh absolutely I think it is in that. As someone who has to move aside assumptions that are supposedly untouchable just to be myself… And then I suppose I started questioning some assumptions and it was “oh hang on that one doesn’t work for me either, oh “.It’s only an assumption or an expectation when I do LGBTI training our definition of trans and gender diverse is framed heavily around society’s expectations based on how we’re assigned at birth and that’s all they are. And expectations are only that, yet they can be so emotionally deep rooted for some people and so rigid that that’s where we get a significant chunk of the discrimination and prejudice because people are emotionally rigid, One might say. and might just go “oh okay I might have some strong views unlike someone else and therefore someone else Has to be like me”. No they don’t. Or he or she doesn’t either. So and I think that’s where a lot of the things start, But I know that I had to be myself and once I started exploring myself and going trying to find a more authentic self it didn’t stop and just did become I’ve called the topsoil effect. I dug through the first layer and there’s another layer and another layer and another layer underneath. And I had to keep digging and well, still digging it seems like it gets closer to bedrock and then something else turns up but maybe that’s part of the excitement of life.

Shosh For sure. And there is that sort of like questioning elements to it as well.

Sally Yeah.

Shosh Yeah.

Sally Well that’s the thing in the end if if a person listens to oneself and goes “something doesn’t feel right, I’m not happy” then I’ve got a question the question otherwise if you if you can’t answer the question it’s the wrong question. So keep questioning it and checking what assumptions you’re making, are they are they really unbendable or are they really just expectations and that life doesn’t have to be a certain way, those sorts of things…

Shosh For sure. um as like a kind of the sort of last little theme that I’d love to explore a little bit, even though we’ve sort of touched on it a little bit, but I’m wondering about your sort of experiences of belonging and do you feel like there is a community, or there are communities, that you belong or you don’t belong to.

Sally A really good question. So I feel very strongly connected to the Bi community. I do feel a connection to the trans and gender diverse community obviously. I’m feeling, to be honest, a little less connected to the broader… But if I can I’ll deliberately misused the term “rainbow community”, singular, because of course we are communities. I’m struggling with… There’s I think a growing bridge between I’ll say the privileged cisgender gay men and some privileged cisgender lesbians compared to almost “the rest”. And this opened out during the postal survey that we saw some people, some so-called “rainbow leaders” sell out a lot of people particularly trans, to some extent bi… Going beyond me, I believe there are many intersex people who are dissatisfied, and rainbow people of color. And I’m still finding that there are lots of good people at the grassroots who are empathic, who do good our leadership to groups they don’t identify with, but I feel we have a lot of people in positions of prominence and influence within our rainbow community and some of the organizations they’re in who are not adapting… well They haven’t adapted beyond 1980s when it was all cis gay male. There’s still incredible misogynism broadly from some of those organizations and high up people. And that’s been a struggle personally. And I have had to question where I fit in. I know I have lots of skills but I I don’t like hierarchy but I suppose I have ended up over a long period going higher in whatever structure there is. But the higher one goes there’s more conservatism, there’s more misogynism, transphobia, biphobia… And also another part of me that’s important is my neuro processing, how my brain works, as an introvert and as someone who identifies very strongly with the Highly Sensitive Person trait. Those traits are often not only not valued they are demeaned. And I’m finding I don’t fit the sort of government political high end circles that are very… I’ll say neuro-expected left brain type of thinking. And so I am, right at the time of having this conversation in June 2019, Looking for, feeling like I am a little bit out of place. Don Henley, The Eagles, one of the underrated songs of the Eagles, it was one of the four new ones they did on Hell Freezes Over. It was a track called “Learn to be Still” and there’s two lines in that song and it’s “how do I get out of here Where do I fit in?”. Having a bit of that at the moment in some of my community involvement and troubled by this bridge. And some people would say well you know it’s the privilege cis gays and lesbians got their marriage equality they can golf and you know look like they’re out of a David Jones catalog and that sort of thing and have their  chardonnay or Shiraz at night and don’t care. I don’t think it’s so much that unfortunately I just think there are people who are not seeing beyond themselves. But we’ve got to start bringing, from my point of view, bi and trans up and even more so. Not that I have an intersex variation, I don’t, but I worry that intersex still seems to be  falling further behind. Where’s their so-called tipping point? And yet some people are still focused on things that are very cis gender gay and lesbian. And we waited very patiently, bi and trans communities. We did feel sold out and we’re not waiting in the back of the queue anymore so I’m having a bit of “where I fit?” On that. But on a lighter note, but also one of genuine pleasure, One of my probably my favourite Facebook group is nothing to do with LGBTI specifically. It is the group that I’m in for wrestling fans. It doesn’t take itself seriously. A lot of wrestling forums, By gosh you criticised someone’s favourite and now, welll, they’ll threaten to put a body slam on you but this group has as its pinned post: “Everyone’s a good guy in here” or a “face” to use the wrestling term. “And we will have no homophobia, sexism, or racism, or transphobia and if you do do that you’ll be given one warning then you will be wished well with your future endeavors” which is what Vince McMahon the head of World Wrestling Entertainment does when he naturally terminates someone’s contract for real. They always say “we wish them well with their future endeavors”, In other words sod off. so it takes itself lightly. We can take the mickey out of ourselves but we also have a lot of fun. Some of the fun moments in there which I do feel very connected, It’s a classic introvert moment introverts of the world world unite together in your own homes by the Internet. When it’s one of the big pay per views on the years we might we might get together but sometimes we don’t. and we can be sitting there watching the pay per view on one device and then we’ve got our hands on our say laptop or something where there’s a conversation thread going like we have when we’re together. But I also have been to some of the events with some of the people in there. Particularly was there one at the MCG last year with 70000 people. I’m not a big event person but that was an exception and it was really good. So there’s a tribe that has yea, There’s lots of queer people in there and I’m valued for who I am and they’re valued for who they are. But wrestling fans are geeks.

Shosh Oh totally.

Sally And you can go along and dress up and wear whatever shirt of your favorite and no one really cares. So that’s probably one of my favorite tribes in a way.

Shosh I mean fantastic. I like the idea that homophobes and transphobes are heels, I have never really thought of that before.

Sally That’s right. Yeah sort of put a stunner on them, throw them over the top. I could go on for hours… But the one tribe that I do feel even closer to is… I very much identify as a binary trans woman in terms of my identity, expression wise I don’t feel I’m very binary and quite happy with that. But there’s a group of people who I connected with, most of whom are somewhat non binary, and when I’m with them I really feel a beautiful energy and it’s even closer than say the broader trans and gender diverse non binary communities. And so there’s a few spots in there where I’ve got my safe spaces. Friend of mine calls them bubbles. You know, a bubble of awesome where you can just hang out and really be yourself and be totally valued for who you are and who you are in that moment and that’s really important. So there’s certainly enough tribes of various sorts there to feel comfortable.

Shosh I guess just a sort of a final thing,  we’re kind of talking about communities and sub communities and subcultures. But what about your sort of sense of belonging just in terms of being in Australia as like a broad sort of nation or state.

Sally I generally feel comfortable here and pretty much always have. I have travelled in more in the first pre transition pre coming out part of my life. I traveled overseas for three months and I suppose it’s a fair comment to say enjoyed some degree of male privilege Doing that, is a fair call. and I looked at would I move overseas somewhere. Having a dad who was born in England I can get a UK a European passport, I’m not sure how that’s going to work after if the Brexit ever happens. But I probably don’t want it but I don’t…. And for what it’s worth to be honest I don’t see myself travelling overseas a lot at the moment given transphobia generally. And there’s a story that is not being shared a lot but it doesn’t have to be hidden either, and that’s of Roe Allen the Gender and Sexuality Commissioner in Victoria who went to America with partner and child and has an X passport and was immediately hauled away by border people at L.A. airport. Thankfully partner was less jet lagged or something and said to the kids you go with Mommy and just keep saying “when are we getting off to Disneyland mommy”. And after two hours they were. So that’s scared the heck out of me so that I would not travel to America alone. But I’d be really worried about travelling even to so-called safe countries with these five star powers that can zap your laptop or something. But the thing is I haven’t seen a lot of Australia anyway would like to get around and see it. So  I might do that at some point. But I do feel largely connected to Australia and Melbourne in particular not just because I’ve lived here all my life. I think it was where I was meant to be. But I didn’t say honestly after the federal election a month ago it does feel like it’s somewhat of a divided country and I’m not sure how we get back to a part where we are glued together more and then we’re in a bit more of a centre space and rather than a more right wing space. Because it was a pretty… Yes it was a surprising result. Okay there’s logical explanations as to why it happened when expectations were so much the other way. But I am a little worried about where our country is heading, along with others, this whole individual freedom which sounds good on paper and is just increasingly being used to mean “be selfish. Don’t care. Be nasty. Kick people when they’re down.” And I am a little worried about that but I’m not going to bail out either. There were some people saying after the federal election “we’re gonna emigrate to New Zealand”. No I’ll stay here and fight as much as I can but generally I fit well into Australia just with some of those concerns. And so I don’t think I’d I’d really go anywhere else, the person would have to be pretty sexy and pretty rich.

Shosh And again it’s that it’s that it’s a middle ground right. It’s the mix, it’s the pastiche, it’s the good and the bad, that you have kind of been touching on.

Sally Yeah and there was one thing that I put a pause button on because I was telling two stories at once and that was one of the funny Jewish childhood stories.

Shosh Oh please.

Sally So I would… My sister and I would Be told to take the high holy days off school, Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. and we’d go particularly on Yom Kippur with my mom and grandmother. We’d first stop in at the progressive synagogue and then at the orthodox one in China Grove St Kilda. So we’d do the run of the synagogues. But one day us two relatively little kids must have been, when I was maybe About 10 or something… We were getting a bit hungry on Yom Kippur, and of course you’re not really supposed to eat anything, but Mom said fair enough and drove round… Couldn’t seem to find any sandwich shops or anything, there weren’t a lot of Maccas or whatever in those days. And what did she end up buying us? Ham sandwiches for lunch. So no we’re definitely not orthodox.

Shosh I was  waiting for that punch line, I was waiting for that punch line.

Sally So yeah there was some fun stories about faith and sometimes I thought of stand up comedy lines about faith because Orthodox Jewish you’re not supposed to have anything other than water pass your lips between sunup and sundown at Yom Kippuer. Not even supposed to brush your teeth. Gotta go and sit in a synagogue with 400 people with bad breath. Oy gevalt! hours of comedy lines.

Shosh That alone is enough to convert you know.

Sally Yeah well you know it’s sort of the whole passover thing, we get Matzah and What do Christians get? They get all the chocolate. Something didn’t work out there.

Shosh You had to find your own way Clearly.

Sally That’s right. Kosher chocolate or something like sugared matzo.

Shosh Oh well there’s  chocolate covered matzah Now.

Sally Is there really?

Shosh That’s the way of the future.

Sally Business Opportunity.

Shosh Um  fantastic. So that’s kind of the end of my questions but I guess before I stop recording is there anything else. Anything else that’s popped up for you or that you think is sort of worth noting or that we maybe skipped over even.

Sally I don’t think so I think we’ve got the faith centered part of the story and that it is possible to find a space. And I think that’s just something I’d add on generally that you know even if it’s not a particular congregation of any sort… And I’ll go beyond Judaism, there is some sort of faith out there for everyone. You may have to hit the search engine and I’m thinking in particular in at Trans Day of Remembrance In November 2017,  Transgender Victoria organized a panel of eight people. one minister and one person of each faith of Judaism, Catholicism, Anglicanism, and Buddhism. And so was a bit like eight queer people of faith go into a bar. And it was very wonderful because sometimes there has been this attempt to polarize faith and the LGBTI community. Of course we’re intersectional. So I just say to anyone, whether it’s Jewish or any other faith, there is a space out there for you where you can feel safe and happy. And I’ve been fortunate enough to find mine. Yes some journeys at times through some twisting roads and I just kept trying to keep going. You’ll find the place, reach out, investigate. We’ve got this wonderful thing called the Internet with search engines. You’ll find someone else out there like you in terms of your rainbowishness and your faith. That’s pretty much like you and you’ll find more.

Shosh Amazing. Thank you so much.

Sally Pleasure.

Shosh [voiceover] So that’s it for another episode. I’d like to thank Sally for her time, and thank you for listening. If all goes according to plan this episode should be coming out right at the start of Hanukkah, meaning I will be taking a little break to stuff myself full of donuts and latkes. Hope to see you all in the new year, shalom ve’lehitraot!