Liv Tate – “Tikkun Atzmi”
In the third episode of Twice Blessed, Liv Tate (she/her) talks to me about the role of Jews in Australia’s wine culture, the complexity of engaging with left-leaning politics as a queer Jew, and what being made in the image of God means to her. Transcript available from twiceblessedpodcast.com
[episode starts]
Shosh [voiceover] Hi everyone! Welcome to the third episode of Twice Blessed, a podcast about the lived experiences of gender and sexually diverse Jewish Australians. My name is Shoshana Rosenberg, I am a PhD student at the Centre for Human Rights Education at Curtin University which exists on Whadjuk Noongar Land in Perth, Western Australia. I’d like to acknowledge that this episode was created on the unceded lands of both the Whadjuk Nyoongar people and the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nations, otherwise known as Naarm, Birriranga, or Melbourne. I would like to pay my respect to the elders of these lands, past, present and emerging, and acknowledge that I have both a privilege and a responsibility to the Traditional Owners as a settler on their lands. Today’s episode is with Liv Tate, a lesbian Jewish youth group leader and commerce student living in Perth. We discuss the role of Jews in Australia’s wine culture, the complexity of engaging with left-leaning politics as a queer Jew, and what being made in the image of God means to her. I’m particularly excited to release this episode as it is one of a small handful of interviews with Jewish people living outside of the main hubs in Australia, which are Melbourne and Sydney. So much of this podcast, and my PhD project in general, is about exploring how Jewish people negotiate margins, outsideness, and having lived experiences which make them distinct from the so-called majority. So in amplifying voices from these smaller communities, I’m hoping to provide some representation of the truly broad range of experiences amongst gender and sexually diverse Jewish Australians. Well that’s just about enough rambling from me, so please enjoy this fantastic interview with Liv Tate.
Shosh [interview] Maybe as a starting point, could you just maybe tell me a little bit about yourself, what you do and you know…
Liv Yeah. Cool. So, yeah, I guess like background context in relation to this is that I identifiy as a lesbian woman and I’m a progressive Jew or… I guess it like depends like whereabouts in the world, or I don’t know whatever, but liberal, reform, progressive well all kind of mean the same thing, especially in Australia. But like, yeah, like whatever.
Shosh Cool. You mentioned that you’re studying commerce as well.
Liv Yes. Yes, I’m studying commerce at Curtin, which is cool. I thought it was like, “oh, I’m different. Like I’m studying commerce. All my friends, like my Jewish friends are doing arts degree”. And then I went to a Jewish friend in Perth, and I mentioned like commerce at Curtin, then all these Jews were like, “yeah, Commerce at Curtin, same thing”. And it’s like, I realised that I must be different coz I’m not doing accounting. It’s not my major. So I’m on the outs there. Yeah. No, so. Again, I work in wine.
Shosh Oh amazing. What do you mean by when you say work in wine?
Liv I sell wine. So, It’s through my family, actually. Yeah, it’s kind of cool. My dad did an interview a couple of years ago where it was like the founding families who like started Vineyards in Margaret River. And there’s actually a whole sect of like Jews who are a part of it, which was really awesome. So it’s actually kind of like this something where it was… It was just general farmers as well. But for some reason, they just got really into making wine. But it was a lot of Eastern European families who moved over where they had limited trades. But what they could do is then you had a farm, then you had to work with the land. And that was a big thing. So they were able to like, you know, it’s a nice little diverse view of like what Australia is.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv They’re able to kind of leave that amazing imprint of like… Now, when people think of Western Australia, we’re known for our wine, and that’s actually kind of thanks to the Jewish immigrants who came. So it’s just an interesting thing that I love about Yeah,.
Shosh That’s really…
Liv Jews in Australia.
Shosh That’s really interesting. I didn’t, I didn’t even really know about it.
Liv Yeah… Like and when I was like younger and because of the synagogue I go to is now Temple David. And like there’s a immemoriam dedication kind of on the wall in the back. And I was asking my mum who some of the people were and there was one family and I was like, “oh, Wise, like the vineyard”. And my mom was like, “yeah, like that’s like, their kid is the guy who owns it”. I was like, “oh, cool”. So it’s just yeah. Really random. But Perth’s so small it’s bound to happen
Shosh Yeah, totally. But it is interesting, like that sort of connection to like wine specifically because obviously it’s so important
Liv Yeah. Just in Jewish culture. It’s like yeah. It’s really interesting. Then when you kind of think about.. with you know, how the elements of Judaism turned to Christianity and turned to Islam and their different relationships to alcohol are like so so polar opposite and so different. But it’s something that’s like really stayed in Judaism where like we value wine and like… But there’s a… Some orthodox people ask my dad to like make kosher wine.
Shosh Right.
Liv And he said no, because kosher wine is gross.
Shosh [laughs].
Liv Which we all know is true.
Shosh You’ve got to take a stand at some point.
Liv Yeah. Yeah.
Shosh Everyone’s got a line.
Liv Yeah. Yeah. No it’s it’s just like I think that’s kinda… I don’t know… because I grew up in a wine household so like that’s like a special part but it’s also nice that it really intertwines with like Judaism that way. The two kind of work together and yeah my dad describes himself as like a… [humble] Kosher [wine] salesman. It’s like something dumb like that.
Shosh Okay.
Liv Yeah. So it’s just kind of like this generational thing of just like that very typical old Jewish businessman. And it’s yeah, it’s funny where it’s just like no wonder I’m just kind of mixing up a bit though in terms of…
Shosh Yeah cool
Liv Yeah!
Shosh Awesome. So I guess like… So you were kind of talking about your family background a little bit. So I’d love to hear a little bit more about, yeah your kind of like cultural or your religious background, again whether it’s Jewish or otherwise.
Liv Yeah. So on my dad’s side of my family originated from Russia. So like pre holocaust, actually pre world war 1 and 2. So it was like kinda Russian, like tsar times when the tsar… We describe it as like Fiddler on the Roof because it’s like literally like that same time where like the pogroms came through and they’re like, “all right, get out”. And then they left.
Shosh Right
Liv Yeah, it’s interesting because just like from like stories and stuff like that where luckily my family chose to come to Australia, but pretty much everyone was just like, yeah, going to Germany because it was cheap and it was close. And my family were trying to choose between Perth and Canada. So.
Shosh Right.
Liv Yeah. Just for farming. And then I think they realized that Canada’s too cold. So, yeah. No. That’s kind of like that side where… I don’t know, it’s something that’s kind of come through… My family, like we’re close, we’re different, the way we interpretate like different ideas of Judaism and all of that. And the fact that, like my parents haven’t forced it on us. Like if we turned… well I think it would be a bit weird just because of like, relationship, but if we ended up going into a space where we decided that maybe it wasn’t for us like they would support it. But it’s a nice thing, like it’s something that we’ve really clung to, and then we’ve all gone in different directions. And that’s the thing that’s really important to us. And yeah, my family kind of describes Passover as Jewish Thanksgiving because my family lives in different parts of Australia, but that’s when we all, like, come back in Perth is for Pesach, And that’s just like a really nice thing that we actually get to do together, because it’s… Yeah, I don’t know, It’s just like it’s, it’s been developed over time and changed a bit like as we’ve gotten, like as my brothers and I’ve gotten older, but it’s still just a really nice environment. It’s just yeah. It’s just a really special thing and it’s… Yeah, and just like the food’s always so random and like even though I’m vegetarian, I have like my one exception where I eat Gefilte fish.
Shosh That’s a very…
Liv Yes. Yes. I’ve been told that.
Shosh [voiceover] In case you’re wondering why I had that reaction, I’m going to read from the Wikipedia page on gefilte fish. “Gefilte fish is a dish made from a poached mixture of ground deboned fish, such as carp, whitefish, or pike. It is traditionally served as an appetizer by Ashkenazi Jewish households. Historically it consisted of a minced-fish forcemeat stuffed inside the intact fish skin”. And then a little bit down the line, apparently “The post-WWII method of making gefilte fish commercially takes the form of patties or balls, or utilizes a wax paper casing around a “log” of ground fish, which is then poached or baked. This product is sold in cans and glass jars, and packed in jelly made from fish broth”. So yes, a controversial bit of Jewish cuisine.
Liv [interview] My friend is like devout vegan and she’s like, “we all have our exception, but no, like that’s a bad exception”. I’m like, I don’t know what it is. I just I really love gefilte fish. If I could have it all year round, I would.
Shosh It’s tradish.
Liv Yeah, I don’t…. I think it’s because everyone either has it like boiled or they get it like in the jar. Where like my family is like “no, we’re going to go to the really nice like fish place. We’re gonna do it fried and it’s gonna be amazing”. And that’s just what we do, I’m like “Okay, Well, I like it”. Whereas everyone just like kneidel and I’m like “nah”. But my mom does make pretty good vegan kneidels, so I’ll give her that.
Shosh Cool, I mean that’s a plus.
Liv Yeah. Yeah. Because most of the time people talk about it they’re like “no it’s so bad” and I’m like “no, you can find good recipes out there”.
Shosh So you mentioned… You mentioned your dad’s side. Is your mom Jewish as well?
Liv So my mom was raised Catholic in rural Australia. And then when she met my dad, like she wasn’t very attached to it because it was like very forced and was like growing up on a farm where it was like, that’s what everyone did. So she knew how important it was to my dad and like she would go when they were dating, She would come to some of the family events. And it was something she actually enjoyed as well, and she saw a connection to it. So she did the 3 year conversion. Which was a lot of time.
Shosh Yeah.
Liv Especially because she was studying as a teacher and she was working up north. So she would drive down once a week just to do her conversion like practices, which is a real commitment. I don’t know if I would do that. But yeah, no, so… Yeah, she’s identified as Jewish for over 30 years now and it’s something that she really gets a lot of enjoyment out of. I don’t know. I think there’s an element where it’s, you know, like obviously you can study it and you can recite Talmud and, you know, you can do all of that if you want and you can have these deep ideological discussions. But I think there’s an element of that culture and that’s something that I really like and not… Obviously like. I don’t agree with the level… It has a bit of a gender role kind of thing of how it’s, like the women do the cooking, but… if, Like my brothers, do like to do it as well, but it’s mostly just kind of like… Because also my my grandmother on my dad’s side, she also converted, but it was like converting in the 50s, which is a bit weird as well. But it’s the same thing where it was like was what the person she married, it was what was important to him, and that’s something she could get behind. And like the family, like welcomed her in, So she learned all these recipes from her mother in law, and my mom learned them from her mother in law. And it’s kind of like a really nice thing. Like, I love that that’s part… The culture is not just like “you have to pray and you have to like not eat pork, and you have to do this”. It’s like no, part of the culture is actually within the food as well, and that’s something that like I like I love because it’s just so special. And how we get to… You know, we don’t have to follow it rule by rule and we get to have fun with it and like do silly things. But it’s just… Yeah, it’s a really nice thing that we get to have and that’s been so… But yeah It’s… I think like I mostly learned just because my brothers don’t live in Perth, but it’s definitely just… And yeah it’s a bit weird just like “oh yeah, it’s only the women who do the cooking” but I don’t know, it’s just kinda how it’s ended up where it’s like my dad doesn’t really cook, my grandfather’s got Alzheimer’s so he’s definitely not cooking. So it’s just kind of the people who are able and are in Perth, and that’s what they do as well. We have family friends who joined us for Passover. So like they’ll come over and they’ll hopefully help as well. We just do like a full day of just like, you know, fried fish everywhere, and just like, chicken fat, trying to get as much out as possible, and using like weird skewers because part of it’s gotten stuck. So just like the most random things that only like this, like, you know, this time of year or getting ready for, um like Sukkot and like maybe… Not Sukkot, that’s wrong… I’m thinking cheesecake.
Shosh Oh, Shavuot.
Liv Shavuot, Yes. Yeah, Shavuot, like doing the cheesecake’s always fun and like Rosh HaShana and Apples and honey and… my grandma is allergic to honey, so we supplement other things. So we really get to make our own traditions and that just kind of adds to it… We’re, we don’t always get to do Shabbat, but we kind of like make our own modern versions. Maybe it’s in a restaurant, but it’s still the idea of like you don’t have to light candles, have Challah and do it like that. It’s more the fact that we get to be together. It’s making that active effort of like, “oh, this is a time that we’re, like we’re going to do it Friday night, we’re actually gonna be together as a family”. And like, that’s how we interpret our own Shabbat. And like, that’s, you know, some people turn off their phones, some people… Yeah, like whatever, will do it like Halakhically. Yeah, I don’t know, like it’s a nice cultural interpretation.
Shosh For sure. I’m kind of wondering about that. Like, do you feel like because you’re talking about it as like a cultural thing, do you sort of, do you still also identify as like religiously Jewish?
Liv Yeah. No, definitely. I think it’s… There’s times that…. Yeah. Like I personally do believe in God, which is always like a weird thing, like talking to non Jews and they’re just like “oh but science!”. And I’m like I believe in science. Like, don’t get me wrong. Like, I don’t… Sometimes I don’t understand it but that’s just because I’m bad at science. But like I believe in evolution and the Big Bang and like, you know, theories that… I’ve had a debate on like climate change, I’ve had a debate like about questioning Big Bang or whatever. And like don’t get me wrong, that’s part of what I believe. But I think it’s… I was just talking about that to someone today. It’s the element of that high power and that the world isn’t what it can do for me, it’s what I can do for it. It’s what I can do… You know, it’s the idea of tikkun olam,.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv Which I love, I have “Tikkun Atzmi” tattooed on my ribs, so… Yeah.
Shosh Hi, me again really quickly. I think “Tikkun Olam” is a really interesting concept and I think a couple of people have mentioned it. So Tikkun Olam means “repairing the world” and it’s a really fundamental part of Jewish culture and Jewish investment in the world. So Tikkun Olam is really all about justice and making the world a better place as part of Jewish culture and Jewish faith. And Liv also mentions the phrase “Tikkun Atzmi”, which she has tattooed on her, and Tikkun Atzmi means “self-repair”. So I suppose taking the idea of Tikkun Olam, repairing the world, and inverting it inwardly.
Liv And that’s just kind of the part that I like where, yeah, I don’t know it like, OK. In 2014, my brother was in Israel and it was during Operation Protective Edge and it was a weird time because I was 16 and by my school like I was being told a lot of things. And there were people who like, all they knew was that I was Jewish and that was it when they were like, “oh, cool. So you believe in Israel. So when I’m mad at Netanyahu, I’m blaming you”. I’m like, “okay. Yes, yes. Do you know what? Say whatever you want to me. I’ll pass it on to him” like That’s how this works, clearly. And I don’t know, I think that was a time where I actually really started to believe in God in the sense of that… Like, you know, growing up and it’s like the idea of like, oh, but it actually has to be a person. Like when you’re a kid and just trying to understand, like how something can exist if it’s not like physically real. and that was during that time where my brother was in Tel Aviv and they had to emergency like move him and his friends out of Tel Aviv and move them south onto the Jordan border because they weren’t going to bomb Jordan. So it was a safer place for them to be. And that was kind just like, “oh, it’s this sudden thing of realizing like, obviously he’s safe now because they’ve moved him so quickly and like the security are caring for them”. But it was this shock of like, “oh, like because of my religion, like that can be, I guess, its like a way of like, against me”. And like, that’s not how I wanted to interpret it. Like I had a friend, her brother was also in the same program. And her response was like to separate herself from Judaism where… We didn’t speak about until like years later. But I don’t know, mine was kind of like, it gave me a deeper connection. And when I was concerned, like, I don’t know, I still feel kind of weird saying something like “I prayed for him”. But it was like that was just kind of like, during certain prayers, and it was like, in silent prayers it was… and, you know, like during like, if I was at a service or if I was in like Ma’amad or like a creative prayer service with some of my friends. And that was when I would think, you know, you’re like you think about the things that are meaningful to you and like that was just something that always came up. And I would be thinking like, “take care of him, like he’s an important person in my life, like I want him to be safe”. and that was just kind of where my brain would go and then it just kind of turned into a thing from that where it was just someone to talk to, you know, like, I don’t need a response, I just like to talk. And that was just kind of where it was for me. So since then, it’s just… Well, I don’t know, I don’t necessarily feel like I need to pray every day. But it’s at that those times that I feel like I choose to, or maybe if I’m at, if I decide to go to a service, or I’m just in the environment, and that’s just kind of like where I go to. I think, like what’s important to me? like, what do I want to pray for? What do I want support with? Like, you know, maybe someone doesnt’ need to be looked over, but also like to help me get through things. Yeah, just like I love the idea that, like, there’s something bigger than all of us and something that we can turn to.
Shosh Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it gives you… I mean it sounds like there’s a lot of power in that. Maybe strength.
Liv Yeah. Yeah. No. Definitely I think. Yeah. I kinda like the idea the power of it, just because it’s the support. It’s like, you know, the set, like… Yeah. I don’t know. I feel like there’s these weird connotations and ideas like praying and believing in God and like you know if you believe in God then you don’t believe in this. And like if you pray and then you’re naive. It’s like I dob’t think that’s it at all, I think it’s having this deep level of understanding about like where you are at and like what’s going, like in your brain, and like what you want support with. And it’s just having something that is intentionally a part of you that can help you, I don’t know, just get through the good and the bad. I think as well, I also don’t think it’s it’s necessarily for the bad. It’s also for the good. And it’s being thankful. And that’s like a huge thing of like, you know, like that’s why we have Yom Kippur, and it’s like Rosh HaShana. It’s like it’s being thankful for these amazing things that we have. So I think part of it is that when I do find myself like praying, I don’t always like to keep it negative. I do like to bring it to that positive point where I’m just like, I’m also really thankful for this. And for like, you know, like like… Yeah, just like what I have and like, what the people around me have, and the ability to like, the love that I have with other people. And I think that’s like, it just adds this specialness to it. And yeah, I really like it
Shosh Yeah. I mean it it’s it’s interesting, this idea of like finding… It almost sounds like it’s a constant process of finding the balance.
Liv Oh, 100 percent. It’s really interesting…. So I’m part of a youth movement, Netzer, which is really great. Just for like context, it’s a progressive Jewish youth movement and I’m a leader in it. And part of it is like on camps we have rabbis come and, you know, they kinda do their thing with younger kids and talk about God. It’s like early things, but afterwards it’s nice, where like, some… Me and my friends, we actually just kind of get to talk to a Rabbi and just, it’s just discussing the idea of God. And I think as well, like that’s the most important thing. Like, you know, my idea a year ago, a month ago, it’s like it’s forever changing. And that’s one of the best things. I think if you’re not questioning… For, at least for me personally, it’s like if I’m not questioning God and it’s, like the existence and my values and beliefs and all of that, if it’s not evolving, then I don’t think I’m thinking about it enough.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv Because I think with something so broad and so like out there and impossible to kind of put a pin in, then like you need to keep thinking about it. Maybe not all the time and keeping yourself up at night. But it’s definitely, I think it’s really great for me personally just to keep thinking and thinking about like, you know, like… Just things that, you know, I probably like maybe not… Maybe tonight, maybe not tonight, maybe in a week’s time, I’ll be thinking like from what I’ve said now, do I believe that still? And I think that’s one of the best parts, is that like, you know, it’s, and it’s not feeling bad that I once had thought that. Like, I think it’s just always thinking and because, you know, I… Coz the same as like where the idea of like “God’s good”. God isn’t good. You know, like, I don’t believe that. Like, I do believe Betselem Elohim, that we’re all made in the image of God. And that’s one of the things I love. And in a way, I kind of hope that idea doesn’t change, because I think that’s what makes the good and the bad and the human. And that’s the idea that like the end of the day, God’s just a makeup of every human element and what makes us human.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv You know what makes the grass green and what makes me trip up stairs and fall over and do dumb things, but also like do good things and like… It’s like being with my grandparents and hang out with my brothers and like, do stuff like that. Like it’s what makes us human. And I think… yeah, it’s just like the nice element of that. It’s, you know, being queer at some point you kind of feel s*** about it. Like that, that’s a given and it’s an awful part. But I think that’s one of the best things. It’s kind of really understanding the idea of Betselem Elohim and being like, “oh, no, I’m made in the image of God. No one can tell me otherwise because that’s what I believe and that’s what I know”. And that’s something that I really love and appreciate about, like Judaism and the intersectionality of it all.
Shosh I mean, that’s really powerful. And actually, that kind of brings me to… Yeah, I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about your sort of… Yeah, your like narrative around your sort of queerness and your sort of life experiences around it.
Liv Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean like I guess it kind of like… I actually kinda like put it together like a really bad puzzle. Like a few missing pieces and like… Yeah… When I was around 16 and… Yeah, I don’t know, I feel like it was like a thing of ups and downs and the person that I was closest to, my brother, was in Israel at the time. So I like came out to him over the phone which felt weird.
Shosh Mmm.
Liv And he was like, “okay, cool”. It was like a really nice thing. But where… I don’t know if it was like whatever he said would have been fine or just like he actually did say the right thing. Like, I’m not sure what it was, but it was just it was just such a supportive. Yeah. Just like environment. And I went to an All Girls Christian school. So not quite the vibe.
Shosh Sounds complicated.
Liv Yeah. Yeah. Being like the one of two Jews in the year and the like… one of the only out people. It’s a bit of a, bit of a thing.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv Yeah. It was somewhat the elephant in the room.
Shosh Yeah.
Liv But yeah, no, it was just kind of like this in a progression. And I definitely, like… It was something I struggled with because the person that I was closest to and who I could talk to about it was on the other side of the world. And it wasn’t really knowing how to talk to my friends about it because all them, they… I think some of them have since then like evolved their sexual identity. But at the time, like I was thinking that they were straight and I was kind of like… And it didn’t affect our friendship, but it was just like, “oh, that was a thing now, like, that was…” you know, like for them, like, they were just like, “oh, yeah, we want to date guys”, and I’m like, “cool. Good for you. That’s nice.” And it’s actually one of the best things for… because as well, I was like, oh, I was already like that Jewish kid. And now I was that gay kid and like… So it was just like, just like so many labels. And like that was just like what was perceived as normal. So then later that year, my brothers were going to Netzer, and it was a thing and I never wanted to go. And my brother convinced me into it. And I went and that was the best thing because, you know, I wasn’t the Jewish kid anymore, because it was just all Jews.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv And then it was going in, and I realized that I was going into an environment where I wasn’t pre perceived as straight. Like that wasn’t a bubble over me or anything. Like I could go in and be myself, and it wasn’t as though I had to, like, come out to everyone and let people change your minds. Like they were meeting me, like an authentic version of my”self. And and it was interesting because I was still kind of like sort of learning. But also, I didn’t really know, like how to address sort of like… How does being gay and my Judaism work together and like, is this like a thing? Because, you know, any form of religion, like growing up and like people around me, they all kind of saw it and they were like “oh like your religion must be against it”. And I was like, I don’t think so. But I haven’t really spoken to anyone about like like we haven’t really had like the ideological liked like conversation about the Talmud and like what the rabbi said so, I don’t know”. But then it was like going to this environment and it was like, it just kind of came up from just talking to people and it was realizing it’s like, oh, no, it wasn’t, it wasn’t a weird thing either because the people I was talking to were also queer. And the person who at the time was running the movement, she was queer and the person who was like the outside, was like the outside adult who was also running the movement was queer, and like ran Tel Aviv Pride for several years,.
Shosh Right.
Liv Yeah. So it was like really random, where I was like, oh. And I’m like, you know, if I’m gonna be judged, it’s not because I’m Jewish and it’s not because I’m queer. Like, that’s not a thing to judge me. And it was realizing to not hold it against myself. And like that, you know, where it’s like, it’s… When you grow up being spoken to a certain way and like you’re not really used to anything different then you think that that’s normal. And it was realizing that that wasn’t normal. and maybe it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t people necessarily being negative and kind of holds me against me. But it was just, that was where living in their bubble and like what they were used to, like that was what they were told was their, you know, it was their reality.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv So it wasn’t as though like I could hold that against them, but it was realizing that they couldn’t hold that against me.
Shosh Yeah. I’m kind of wondering as well, because you you mentioned you were talking previously about that sort of process of questioning. So was that something that also, like your sexuality kind of fit into that process as well?
Liv Yeah, definitely. Yeah, hugely. It was like questioning it you know. And it was kind of like the way people were…. Yeah, I mean, like at like your early teens thing, No one’s really talked. Like it’s like not many people I was friends with, like we weren’t talking about like what we thought was attractive and like what we were like, like, attracted to. So it was like never really knowing if like what I thought was like normal. And like, if I’m thinking it is everyone else thinking it and we’re just not talking about it? Like or is it just me? And it’s kind of working that out. And that’s the process, and it’s… Yeah. I don’t know, it was just kind of like… My brain would go in and out of like questioning for like a number of years. But it was like just never really knowing, like, is this normal? At the same time like being told, you know, all the people around me being like, “oh yeah, like, like that guy’s so hot”. And I was like, “okay, cool”. And then it’s like there’s always like like there’s like weird adults who are just like “so do you have a boyfriend?” I’m just like “what?” It’s like “no, why, do you? Like is this a bonding moment? Like what’s going on?”.
Shosh [laughs].
Liv Yeah. It was just like really weird and just kind of like trying to, you know, it’s like that desperate need to fit in as like a teenager. And like trying to like find that sense of belonging. But at the same time trying to work out, like, “but what do I actually think? Like, what’s going on my brain like, what’s happening?” And that’s a big part of it. And I never really… Funnily enough, which I don’t know, I think I’m like surprised about now, and I’m like, “is that even real?” Like the fact that I never had… I don’t know, the conversation within myself is that like, oh, I’m if I’m gay, like, does that affect, like, being Jewish? Which is interesting just thinking back on, because like, that was a huge part of my identity just because, like, I was the only Jewish kid and like when they would teach religion instead of like actually teaching it, they were just like, “oh, Liv can do it” and it was like “oh, can I? That’s nice. All right. Thank you.” Yeah. Yes, I remember bringing the Seder plate in several times for some nice school education,.
Shosh Right.
Liv Yeah, just like weird s*** like that where it was just like… I think about it now, it’s like so problematic that the teachers actually never learned the content and just kind of relied on me to do it. It’s like there’s a level of that, like, yes, it’s empowering, but also it’s like “Maybe you should know this”. Like… And it’s even thinking about like the way they educate on other religions like outside of Christianity. like the level of how poor the education was on Islam is, it actually makes me violently uncomfortable. It’s so disturbing. I’ve just like… And it’s realizing it’s not because, like, they like were standing there and being like, “I’m only going to tell them these things”. It’s literally because they didn’t know. And then it just led to another like level of disturbingness, like the fact that the education they were given, and how deep it goes back to the fact that people don’t really know. Like it’s just not a thing people actually understand and want to talk about. And I think it’s, you know, it affects like, you know, a lot of minority, yeah, minorities. And from a religious perspective, that like, it should always be up to us to explain ourselves like, you should just like, you should learn, you should want to learn. That’s the point. Like, if you want to teach about religion, you don’t just pick and choose which religion you wanna teach about. You’re meant to teach about it from a wide, broad perspective and you know like if I was to go into it, obviously I would end up knowing more about Judaism just because, like, that’s the way I am and I’ve been raised in. But it’s still like making the effort to like, okay, but I still want to know about these other religions and I want that like level of education. And I think that’s an important part of it. Yeah, so I guess it was just… I think I’ve gotten really sidetracked.
Shosh No no no, but I am kind of wondering, you know, I think education is a really kind of important thing. And I was kind of wondering, you were talking about that sort of feeling of having to be the educator as a Jewish person in a Christian school. Have you also felt like similar pressure to be the educator because of your sexuality?
Liv Oh, 100 percent, yeah. No, definitely. And it’s not always just like… I think like it’s varied at times. So like when I was at school, it was like, “oh, that’s the only like, you know…” like we weren’t using the term like queer then. Coz I feel like it’s more in recent years that it’s kind of been used as like a broad expression, but it’s just been like, “oh, that’s like the only gay person”. And it’s… Which is kind of like this, like I was expected to… It’s the same thing, I was expected to explain myself.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv It’s like you’re weird, so you have to tell me why I should be okay with you being weird. It’s like “mmm that’s not right, but whatever”. Yeah, and I remember like, it was the school ball and it was like people who didn’t really speak to me because I was like, yeah, me and my friends were losers and proud. But it was like they wanted to know if I was taking a girl, and that was the thing.
Shosh Yeah.
Liv And yeah, it was just kind of like that level of like self explanation and then going into like, uh, Netzer experience where it was weird that I didn’t have to explain myself. Because like, they, you know, it was people who in outside of this were minorities, so able to actually understand and be together and be like, “no, like, do whatever you want. Like, who am I to judge you?” And that’s the whole point, it’s like, what gives me the right to judge another person? And it’s realizing the power like, as majority and as like, knowing your power and knowing like the privilege you have, definitely. Yeah, and just kind of like understanding, it’s like when… no one has to explain themselves. And I think that’s part of it. I remember I was running this program, so there’s all these Orthodox kids and it was for Yom HaSho’a, so um for Holocaust remembrance. And we were asking them like different questions and we were doing spectrums and whatever. And we put out one question they were like, “do you think…” So when the line they say like “never again”,and, you know, obviously not wanting, like wanting to prevent racism and hate and all of this, like, do you believe this because you’re a Jewish person? Like, do you think, like, that’s what empowers, like, that’s the reason why? And they’re all like, yes, that’s why, because I’m Jewish, like, I’m saying no to everything. And then we’re like, so does that mean a person who, a man, straight, like in a dominant religion or, you know, in a background where his religion isn’t like held against him, you know, completely, like complete privilege, complete majority: Does that mean that, like, they shouldn’t be held accountable for… because you know, like they’re not Jewish, does that mean, like, they don’t have to care?
Shosh Mmm.
Liv And they were like “Oh!” And it was just this weird thing like watching these Orthodox kids be like, maybe it’s not my Judaism that empowers me to do these things.
Shosh Mmm.
Liv But I think it’s a very valid question. I was like, I think our Judaism empowers us to do things. And like, you know, it’s like I’m… Like my friends in Melbourne, they take part of a lot of asylum seeker rallies, which is really amazing. A lot of really cool events. And they’re there because, like, we’re Jewish, like we were once kicked out. We know what it feels like. Like, our families were refugees. So I’m here doing it. And I think it’s something… I’m like, I’m always thinking about it. It’s like, am I doing it because I’m Jewish or am I doing it because I’m a person and I should care? And like, that’s the thing. And it’s like… I always have conversations with them about it. And it’s still something we discuss like intensely. We’re like…, We you know, we do it because our family were refugees, but also because we give a s***.
Shosh Totally. Yeah. And so like does that sort of…. So I guess, what’s the answer to that question for you?
Liv Oh it’s, yeah, it’s still hard but I think it’s… I think on the forefront, just like every person that I care, but I also think that, part of the reason… Part of the reason we care and the reason we do things and, you know, just the way we learn things and things make sense in our brains is because like if we’re able to connect on an emotional level. And it’s finding that level of emotion, like that’s what empowers us. So I think it’s the level, it’s taking the care to the empowerment and that’s what kind of takes it to that next level. And like wanting to be active and involved and… Yeah, I don’t know, I think when…. Yeah, I’m just trying to like think of like other elements to it because, you know, like I care about climate change and all of that. But I think that it’s… Then it’s like taking it to that next level. And you’re in a way, it’s, like that’s where I like take these other elements of like wanting to give a s*** about something. And that’s kind of like knowing what it’s like to… Yeah, I guess like, being a proud woman, being a proud gay person, being a proud Jewish person and know what it’s like to be treated like s***, so like we’re treating the earth like s***. So… same vibes.
Shosh Yeah. Yeah. That’s kind of an interesting thing. I am kind of wondering, you know, because we’ve kind of been talking and we’ve been talking about like your Jewish experiences and your experiences like as a queer person, as a gay person. Do you find that there’s like a way in which they sort of intersect for you, or ways in which one informs the other?
Liv Oh, one hundred percent. Yeah. Well I think it’s… I always thought that like the two… And I definitely want to come back to my point of Betselem Elohim because it’s like, well if I’m gay, God’s a bit gay, so…
Shosh at least a soft bisexual at a minimum.
Liv Oh 100%, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like God wearing Doc’s hard.
Shosh [laughs].
Liv Like whether it’s a septum ring, eyebrow piercing, something’s going on.
Shosh Maybe shaved side of head.
Liv Yeah. Yeah. Like.
Shosh Yeah, like an undercut?
Liv Yeah. Undercut, some colour. Like something like that.
Shosh Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Liv But no definitely. I think that’s one of the biggest elements of my Judaism is the idea of Betselem Elohim. It’s what really empowered me. And like when Netzer and all that, we make like big political statements, that’s the thing we always come back to. Because at the end of the day it’s like when something’s happening, we’re all made in the image of God, we’re all equal. And that’s why we’re meant to care, you know, obviously it’s “our family were refugees” and all that. But it’s like that’s why we care about things in a way. So then I think that level of intersectionality is that like that’s part of who I am you know? Like we’re all saying, like, what makes me trip upstairs? It’s like that’s just a part of me. And like that’s like what reflects… Like I’m reflected within that. And I think that’s kinda like an ongoing stance. But one of the things I really love is that it’s seeing that queerness and Judaism, which is always so amazing, make me so happy. My friend ran a program that was about Judaism in drag. And she found the most incredible resources and it was so much fun. And we were just kind of talking about and it was just, yeah, it was like she was like, bringing mostly information, but just, every piece of information was just always a discussion that was just always really cool. And we’re talking about like the idea in the Talmud how they believed that there was six genders.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv Which I just like I always think is one of most amazing things. It’s that like, you know, we question things as they are. And the fact that… I’m not gonna like try and quote it exactly or like put specific data because I can’t fully remember it. But I do remember that there was a part about… I think it was a trans person in the Talmud and they weren’t seen as an other, they weren’t seen as like negative. They were a hero in it.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv And that’s the thing where it’s like it’s… You know, like the idea of a sixth gender, like that wasn’t shamed. That was like that was just like “all people exist, here are some”. Like that was how it was. And that’s the fact that, like, you know, when you, like the old miserable Rabbis who are the description that just dress like penguins. And it’s like if even like they can be like all “humans are equal Betselem Elohim, like six genders exist”. You know, obviously, like, the ideas have progressed a lot since, you know, Middle Ages, but I think like that’s a really amazing element that really isn’t spoken about enough.
Shosh Yeah, so like, do you feel like… Do you feel like is, there is like an inherent queerness in Judaism?
Liv Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, no, one hundred percent because I… That’s the thing where it’s like, when you think about it… I don’t know, I guess like for me personally and like the way I was raised and like all the Torah stories and the five books of Moses and everything like that… It always seems to be like the heroes keep coming back as women. And I think in that way, I also think like Judaism is inherently feminist.
Shosh Mmm.
Liv Like we can talk about how it’s like… I was actually listening to this really cool podcast was done by Triple J and it’s on there… Like one about sex, love, and gender. And then one about like dating and Judaism. And the rabbi they had on, I actually knew who she was, she’s a really cool rabbi in Melbourne. She’s actually from Perth. And she was talking about a whole bunch of things. And it’s always just like learning about these funny like, and like really cool ideas where apparently it’s actually like in the Talmud that women are supposed to cum. Like it’s like if a man and a woman are having sex, then like it’s the man’s job to make the woman climax.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv And like, that’s awesome. Like, that’s a great… It’s where… I think that’s why we get so mixed up about… because we weren’t there in the Middle Ages, like we weren’t a part of that. So we just kind of make these blanket statements like “everything’s sexist, everything’s wrong, like we’re going backwards” and like all of that. And I think like, don’t get me wrong, I think there’s so many problems. Like there are so many problematic elements. But I think that there’s also these parts where it’s spoken about how in Judaism that there were really amazing things that need to be spoken about, need to be discussed, because otherwise, like Judaism kind of develops into something that it isn’t and we’re always talking about things that we shouldn’t. And yes, like I don’t agree with obviously the ideas of like, the idea like a man lying down with another man, like how he should with a woman is like a waste of seed, like I think that’s stupid beyond reason, because that implies that a woman menstruating is a waste of seed and that’s our entire existence. Which f*** off, no, it’s not.
Shosh [laughs].
Liv Like I don’t go through pain to be told that I’m just like a bad person. It’s like, “oh, right. Thank you”. Yeah. So I think like, obviously that’s you know, it’s one of the best parts of Judaism is that like, you know, you’ve got to question it. Like that’s why we had the five books of Moses and then we have an even bigger book that’s just questioning the five books of Moses like several times over many, hundreds of years. Like that’s like one of the best things because then, you know, we look at it now… And like even now, like that’s the whole point of why we have like a Drash each week is because it’s still people questioning it. And like there’s a Rabbi I know in L.A. and he like gave a really interesting Drash for Yom Kippur where he was talking about mental health and the importance of that.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv And it’s hearing like like, you know, modern older Rabbis actually like not be afraid of talking about these things and having these conversations. And it’s one of the best parts. And that’s, yeah, I think it’s like what keeps the conversation going and keeps like intertwining these elements where it’s like you can be Jewish and be queer and, you know, you don’t have to necessarily be a white person. Like, and you can convert, and all these things. And like… You did have people converting like in the Talmud and the Torah. That was a thing that also happened.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv So it’s it’s like it’s weird that then there are people who are like, trying to dictate overall what Judaism is. It’s like, well no, because that was one of the things that, like God said, is that Judaism and like, Halakha, and the ideas, it’s like, it’s not with God. Like, God gave it to us. And that’s part of it, it’s like it’s with us. So we dictate our relationship to God. We dictate our relationship to Judaism and like Halakha, and what we choose and choose not to do, and how we connect. And I think a person like… I don’t think any person has the right to tell another person what the way they’re living their life is inherently wrong, unless they’re a serial killer. That… Maybe not, I think that’s the line.
Shosh I think that’s on the edge, um, that’s like right on the edge
Liv Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s kind of a part of it. And so the fact that even then, like the idea that Judaism is the fact that it’s something like within the… Not the Ten Commandments, like the large one.
Shosh Talmud?
Liv No, not the Talmud because it’s before it was the Ten Commandments when it was… All I remember is it’s the number of the amount of seeds of a pomegranate.
Shosh Oh, yeah. Oh…
Liv It’s embarrassing because that was my Drash, my bat mitzvah.
Shosh I didn’t, I didn’t have one. So I’m saved…
Liv Yeah, but that was kind of part of it. Where it was… It’s Something like that God made the statement that any of these can be broken to save a life. And I think that also interacts with the idea of like being queer is that when you look at the LGBT suicide rates, it’s like at the end of the day, like that should be enough because like you’re saving a life. Like you’re, you’re, accepting, you’re being kind, you’re reaching out, you’re giving a s***. And that’s part of it. It’s like, well shouldn’t that be an intertwined element of you helping someone, and if you can make that bit of a difference, then like you know that’s inherently Jewish in a way.
Shosh Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s a really amazing kind of… I haven’t really thought about that angle, but it makes a lot of sense. I’m kind of wondering with all of this, you know, at the very top of this, you kind of mentioned that you sort of sit in that, you know, sort of within that kind of progressive movement. Do you feel like… Like is there any particular reason why you identify specifically, like within the progressive movement rather than other kind of aspects of Judaism?
Liv Yeah, no, definitely. So. Yes, so in 2016, the year after I finished school, I went on a gap year program with a whole bunch of other Jews in Israel. And it was an environment where, because in Perth, where the Jewish communities are really separate, like to the point that we’re the only place in the world that has actually separated our cemetery of reform and Orthodox.
Shosh Mmm.
Liv Which is… So anyone who knows the Perth Jewry, it’s a very problematic situation. And well, it sounds a bit screwed up, but the only way it will evolve is when the old people die because they’re the ones with the issues. But that’s neither here nor there. But it was because of being from a progressive background. I never really got to interact with other Jews and other sects and kind of get to see that alternative point. And it was getting to do that. And definitely I found some of the ideas intriguing of, yeah, I guess just like more more traditional aspects, but also the more… Less religious and more cultural.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv And I think that’s kind of the reason why I love progressive Judaism, because it is that middle ground where, you know, I can believe in God and I talk about the Talmud and Torah and those ideas. But at the same time, you know, as I said, like I believe in science and more progressive modern ideas. And I see my Judaism as something that is consistently questioning and evolving, which I don’t see in the same way for orthodoxy, where it’s kind of, you know, the fact that men and women still sit separately and stuff like that.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv And I just I can’t you know, I can’t agree with that for so many reasons. And yeah, it’s just, it’s upsetting. And I think that’s just something that we should be questioning. But at the same time is that when when I look at the more, I guess like left side of things where I have some really amazing friends who are involved with that. And I got to roommate with some of them. So I’ve had these really cool conversations about it. And as much as I love that, because they’re obviously into science and not to say that Orthodox people aren’t intelligent, but it’s like their kind of like worldview’s very intellectual and very progressive and always questioning why we did everything and what we were doing. And it was an amazing environment to be in to be thinking about that. But that being said is that there wasn’t really a relationship to God because there was the element of science. And I couldn’t see that as something I believed in because, you know, as I said, like I. I do believe in God, and I think that is a part of what connects me, and when I say like I… Some of my friends, like when they say the Shamar, they don’t thank God, they thank like humans for like creating everything we have, which I think is really cool. But at the same time, I think, you know, if I’m going to connect to this idea of Betselem Elohim it all kind of originates somewhere.
Shosh Sure.
Liv So I think it’s appreciating and thanking both. And that’s that’s why I really like that progressive Judaism is that middle ground that we need. But at the same time, it’s whatever connects us, whatever keeps us going. But I don’t think that’s a valid reason to crap on another person’s Judaism.
Shosh Totally, but it feels like there is a kind of responsiveness to how you’re sort of describing Progressive Judaism. Like it feels like responsive to individuals’ needs.
Liv Oh 100 percent, and that’s kind of another… Yeah, I was thinking about that as I was talking but I forgot… That is like another cool element is that… It’s the fact that our Judaism is so individual. So at the end of the day to be a progressive Jew like you don’t have to believe in God. Like you don’t have to believe in anything you don’t want to believe in. And it’s the mutual respect to one another, like what you believe in, what connects you and like that’s it. Like it’s we all, we’re all individuals, we all have our own relationship. And, you know, it’s being respectful of that and supportive, you know, like, I don’t have to agree with what another person believes in, but like, I don’t want someone crapping on my Judaism, so why would I crap on theirs? You know, it’s like, what’s the point?
Shosh Totally, yeah. And I guess, like, you know, that kind of brings me to the last sort of thing that I’m really trying to explore with this study as well, is this idea of like belongingness. And you know that like, you know, sort of like thinking beyond this sort of self and the interpersonal stuff. I’m kind of wondering, like, what have been your sort of, you know, whether it’s in the LGBT community, the Jewish community, or like even in Australia more broadly, like what have been your experiences of belonging or not belonging in those communities?
Liv It’s… I don’t like it, but definitely like growing up in Perth, I don’t feel accepted by the LGBT community at all.
Shosh Ok.
Liv I feel like I’m looked at as though I’m not gay enough or because I’m Jewish, because I’m a Zionist, that I can’t really be a left wing person. So I can’t be inherently gay. And I think it’s just so hurtful and so hateful. And I think that’s like one of the worst parts is that because Perth is so small and the people who run our events and run these things is the Socialist Alternative, they have a huge say. And I think that’s part of the problem where they’re telling, you know It’s like they run these events and, you know, like they are the pride parade for it, and like all these rallies or whatever. And, you know, obviously there will be people who come and like sell like their homemade stuff, like amazing pride stuff. It’s like, that’s awesome. But at the same time, they’re selling books about Karl Marx and saying that Israel is an apartheid state and making these blanket statements. And it’s like, I respect that you have a different view to me. But especially when, like, I’m a, yeah, I’m 16 or 17, like I’m a kid, I’m still trying to work out my views. Don’t call me a terrorist. Like I’m not coming back to these events because I don’t feel welcome.
Shosh That sounds highly alienating
Liv Yeah, 100 percent. And like, or just being told blankly that because I’m, because I’m religious, because, you know, before you even go into the conversation about do I believe in God just identifying with a religion, It’s like, “no, you’re on the other side, like you’re against us, like you’re trying to stop us”. It’s like “what have I done?” All I’ve said is that I’m Jewish. Like, you know, please tell me like what I’ve done because how is that a statement?
Shosh Mhm.
Liv And I think it’s just that level of attacking this. And it’s just so negative that I’m not a part of… I was talking to one of my friends and he asked me, it’s like, oh, like, “are you part of any of these groups?” I was like, “no, I’m not. Because, like, why would I want to be?” You know, like, I would love if I could be, I would really love that. But that being said, like, there isn’t one in Perth. There is definitely one in Melbourne. And it’s like, really, oh, yeah, and I’ve seen some stuff with them that’s like, really awesome. But… and it’s a shame because partially, yes, like it is a small community. But I think there need to be like massive, like attitude and like idea adjustments if they’re like… If we’re there to support, you know, queer people and it’s a pride related event and like or, you know, Socialist Alternative, if they’re running a protest about refugees, like that’s what we’re there to do. Now, if we were there to talk about what’s happening in Israel, then that’s the time to talk about it.
Shosh For sure.
Liv But that’s not appropriate at these events because you’re isolating people, you know, you’re isolating young Jewish queer people, and that’s not okay. And that’s like so upsetting to me. And it’s part of… When I run like these Jewish events in Perth for young kids. It’s this weird thing, that like when we talk about like what are the educational things you want to focus on, it’s now at a point where we actually know how to educate on how to talk about Israel in enough of a sense of like “this is how you can get through these conversations”, which shouldn’t be a thing. Like I’m sorry that you don’t necessarily know anything because you’re still young, but it’s like, this is going to be something that a person’s going to throw at you and here’s how you can kind of get through it. So I definitely, like I don’t feel that that’s something that I can be a part of in Perth just because there isn’t really the… Yeah, there just isn’t like a way of connecting to it and feeling involved. But it’s nice that the Jewish community is where I’ve felt most connected and most involved.
Shosh Mm hmm.
Liv Where… Like doing through my youth movement work, and that’s been really amazing. And like so many, the majority of the people are queer. I’m on the federal board this year, it’s five people, and three of the five are queer.
Shosh Mmhmm.
Liv And like, you know, it’s like it’s kind of like in a way, it’s like, why aren’t we talking about it? It’s not that we even… We actually have a queer Jewish WhatsApp group in the youth movement
Shosh Right.
Liv Because it’s just a place that like we can support each other. And we all have like, we all have different life experiences, and we all have similar… And that’s like a really nice thing for us that we can share each other like information and just like, you know “Oh, I heard of this like cool Jewish queer thing, like, here it is”. That’s the nicest part of all. And the… So we work with, they’re alled Shlichim, they’re like Israeli emissaries. And because of the work I’ve been doing, I’ve previously been working a lot with one person who is different to the person before, but also ran Tel Aviv pride for several years.
Shosh Right.
Liv Just a weird thing. This is like.
Shosh You just keep winding up here.
Liv Yeah, Love Perth, love Australia. And he’s become a really good friend of mine. And it’s interesting talking to, you know, the conversations weren’t really always about like our Judaism or like being like gay, but we just always had these really awesome conversations because we could acknowledge and respect each other’s life experiences and the struggles that come with that. And even then, like from non queer people in the Jewish community, it’s that level of mutual respect. The fact that, you know, like it’s… They’ve gone through experiences where they’ve felt on the outer and like, you know, felt attacked and yeah persecuted because they were Jewish. And we’ve kind of all had that mutual level of hate towards us. So we know what that’s like. So, like, why do you want to attack people further? And it’s weird that it’s like… And yeah, like that is from you know, like people like in their 20s, like my age and like, you know, similar people. But it’s also like there is that level of it from older Jewish people. You know, it’s always having that ongoing thing of like, “we know what it’s like for people to hate us. So why do we want to hate others even more? Like make other people feel bad just because they’re different to us?” So it’s weird to me, the fact that, like, you know, if yeah… If I can see a 90 year old Holocaust survivor stand up and say, like why we should have, like why the temple should have marriage equality. But then a bunch of young queer people can’t accept a person being queer and Jewish. Like how does that work? That’s weird. Like it makes no sense.
Shosh Yeah, that’s really interesting. That seems like quite a stark contrast really between those two communities.
Liv Yeah, I think it’s it’s definitely a conversation. And I… It’s something I do with a lot of patience. I do try and have it with, you know, because I’ve previously studied at ECU and the Socialist Alternative were there every day. And they were loud and they’re annoying. They’re just everywhere. And they would always try to like pass out this stuff and they would get offended when I would say no. And it was always that I had to explain myself. You know, like, how dare I?
Shosh Mhm.
Liv And a lot of the time, the conversation… Normally I do wear my Star of David. And they would see that. And that was kind of their thing where they were like “Well, I can see you’re Jewish and like, so, you must be like a Zionist, or you must be like ultra religious”. I’m like “I’m sorry. What? That’s not true”. Like, it’s at a point where it’s just like, how dare you say that? I mean, like, how dare you make these mass assumptions? Like, you don’t know my name. You don’t know who I am, you don’t know my beliefs or any of that. So why would you say that to me? And that’s just going into a thing where like these assumptions…. Yeah, so I think it is that… Like so I sometimes, like, I do like try and talk to them and have these conversations. And they, like, wanna make blanket statements and say, like, why they don’t like Israel. And I’m like, that’s fair, I’m a Zionist. I don’t like it either. And it’s kind of having to explain like this is what Zionism is like. This is… Zionism is a spectrum. like you, you don’t have to… Like saying that isn’t a scary term and it doesn’t mean 30 million things like it’s a very basic concept and then you grow it from there. And that’s kind of the thing that it’s like starting over. But, you know, like it’s like… Most the time I can’t even finish that sentence because then they want to put their opinion and tell me I’m wrong. You know, talk about borders, and they want to talk about politics. I’m like, cool, I hate Netanyahu, too. Awesome. Great. We can bond over that.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv But at the same time, like I think like it’s not… Yeah, it’s lost in the conversation. And it’s weird that a group that’s like so are known for being left wing also turns around and just gets like really angry about everything as soon as someone doesn’t agree with them. And I’ve been in an odd situation where it’s like, you know, like they think like that they’re so, yeah, like they think they’re so left wing and cool and like they stand up for women, they’re feminists. And like when it’s like, okay, how does this happen when instead of having a one on one intellectual dialogue with me, you like bring over your like other tall male friends to stand over me and you all yell at me together. It’s like, okay. That’s fun. And it’s kind just like looking at how ironic this situation is, being like…. Like if I was to point it out, they’d be like, “oh, it’s unintentional”. It’s like what happens every time.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv So it’s like clearly there’s something going on here. Yeah. And it’s a shame because it’s like I want to have that dialogue and I want to be able to talk about it. But it’s like they just shut down. It’s like it’s not something they want to talk about, which is just like, it’s disappointing because I think there’s so many conversations. And the more you isolate people and kick them out and make them feel unwelcome, like, it doesn’t make you any cooler, it doesn’t make you f***ing woke. Like that’s not what this is, like, it’s unwelcoming and it just makes your group smaller because you’re kicking away, you know, people that want to talk to you and people who are queer. And you’re not representing the queer community in an honest perspective.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv And that’s like a part of it. Like you need to be able to do that, because as soon as you don’t, then like, you really can’t say that you’re like a queer supporting, like, you know, group. Like, you know, you’re not a f***ing ally. Like that’s not what you do. And I think that’s… Yeah, like that’s just like an important element of it and something that’s like important for them to discuss. But you know, what you gonna do.
Shosh I guess, you know, we’ve been talking about communities and like these kind of smaller communities. But, and this might be a very, this is kind of a broad question, but do you feel like you belong in Australia?
Liv Whoa… My immediate thought when I hear that is a friend of mine in Melbourne who likes to upset another friend… like all Jewish. And he likes to yell. And he is… I want to word this right. So I’m sorry if this sounds weird, but so basically he will yell that Jews aren’t white. And he says, I’m not white because I’m Jewish. Now, I think he does believe it in a way, but I also think he says that just to piss someone else off.
Shosh Right.
Liv But for context, both of these people, we all have same sort of colour, we all like do look white.
Shosh Yeah.
Liv And that’s kind of a really interesting conversation where it just makes me think of that, and it’s just… Yeah, I don’t know. It’s really it’s. Yeah. It is broad. It is a weird question. I guess like… Yeah, I am a Australian coz I think Australia is diverse.
Shosh Mhm.
Liv Like that’s what we are. Like, you know, if Australia is just a bunch of white people who came over here as convicts and that’s it, well Australia looks pretty f***ing boring. And that means we’re not… You know, as I said, the beginning, means our wine community is gonna be pretty crap. Is that arisk we want to take?
Shosh Oh, absolutely not.
Liv No, no, no, no.
Shosh We can’t let the wine quality drop at any point in time.
Liv [01:05:49] No, it’s what we’re known for. It’s our tourism, you know. And I think that’s one of the best things about Australia. So, if you remove… Like not even Specifically talking about like being Jewish or the colour of our skin or the way we, like, being queer. As a whole, when you look at like the best things that come from Australia, it’s, chances are like that person is like, you know, they don’t have this true lineage of coming over here as convicts, and that’s who they are, and they’re proud, and they’ve got the… What are the Stupid stars and the flag?
Shosh Southern Cross.
Liv Yes, Southern Cross tattoos. Yes. Like it’s like, you know what I mean? I think there’s so much more. Like if you look at even something as basic as if you look at our music industry like Australia has the most incredible music industry at the moment. And a lot of that comes from that level of diversity. Like my friend who actually gets offended when, by the term the Jews aren’t like, broad term, but that Jews aren’t white. She has like a really cool band that’s doing well. And it’s all made up of like I think everyone in the band is actually Jewish, just kind of is what’s happened. And there’s queer people in it as well, which is really amazing and they do really cool music. Yeah. And then like the band like approached members of our local community like that, they’re all Jewish youth movement kids. Like that’s who they are. Like, I know a whole bunch of them because of it. And then even like outside of the Jewish community where we get like amazing artists like Sampa the Great and, you know, people like that who they just want to create music. And it’s, you know, and that’s just how we express art because it’s from our life experiences. And that’s where it partially originates from, is that like, you know, like, I don’t wanna only listen to someone who is just, is their life experience is just pure privilege, because that sounds really boring. It’s like, I don’t want to listen to that, that sucks. But like at… Yeah, I think like that’s where we get that level of diversity from is the facts… And like that’s what supports our country as a whole. That’s why I love Penny Wong, because I think, like I often say, it’s like I dream of Penny Wong to be prime minister because she represents what Australia is. Like we’re not all white, we’re not all men, we’re not all straight you know. And she’s like spoken quite openly about mental health. Like we don’t all have perfect mental health, like these are things… And like, you know, I think it’s like, She’s… Like that’s why I love that she’s a politician. And maybe I don’t fully agree with the Labour Party, but I like the fact that there are people like her in positions of power and representing Australia, because it’s coming from a place of like saying “I haven’t had privilege my whole life. And that sucks. And that shouldn’t be a thing.” You know, and even when you look at like the ABC… Like somebody my family obsessed with Anh’s Brush with Fame, I don’t know why, apparently old Jews really love it. They just really like watching people paint on the ABC.
Shosh Look, fair enough.
Liv Yeah. I mean, don’t we all?
Shosh We’re interesting people.
Shosh [voiceover] Hi so just for anyone who is either not from Australia or is like me and can’t remember the last time they watched anything that wasn’t on Netflix, Anh’s Brush with Fame or Anh Do’s Brush with Fame is an ABC show that features comedian Anh Do who has a refugee background, and apparently he just paints portraits of celebrities and interviews them. So that’s a bit of fun, we all love that!
Liv [interview] Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that like one of the ABC’s biggest shows is watching an artist who was a refugee and being able to relate to people. And the parts that, from watching it like that’s a huge way that he relates to people is because of that, you know, It’s the experiences. And in a way it’s like as Jews we say that we that part of the reason we can like always like get along, it’s because we have that shared history. And I think that’s amazing. But I also think like as Australians, as minorities, in a way, we do have that shared history. And I think so in a way like, yes, I guess I like being Australian which sounds really weird because like people who say that are like really into it and probably have a VB in their hand and wearing like an Australian flag as a cape. Yeah, and like running around with a Bunnings hat, like that’s a vibe I think that people like think of. But I think at the same time is that I guess it depends what we interpret being an Australian is. And for me, it’s like yes, obviously I can focus on the negatives because we have so many negatives in our Country. And don’t me wrong, like I definitely feel like those things need to change. But as a counterpoint is the fact that if you look at what Australia is, if you look at what the build up of this country is like, what you know, like how we’re here and what we’re doing and what some of the most amazing things come from. It comes from the diversity. And that’s amazing. And like that’s something that I want to be a part of, and I’m proud to be a part of that level of diversity that comes from being in Australia. Coz I think, you know, obviously we can focus on the negative, but sometimes it’s like… Not in the way of just being like blissfully ignorant, but like, why not focus on the positives and the amazing things that we can do? And it’s the facts, you know, like we can have this conversation for your doctorate, like that’s the amazing part of it. Like, that’s what I like, there are places in the world that you couldn’t be able to do that, or people wouldn’t be interested. And I think that’s kind of the brilliance of like what creates Australia and that level of diversity. And that’s kind of what we need to keep growing.
Shosh [voiceover] So that’s it for episode three. I’d like to thank Liv for her time and thank you for listening. If you have any questions or you would like to take part in this podcast, please do get in touch at twiceblessedpodcast@gmail.com. Take care, and shalom ve’lehitraot!
[episode ends]
Twice Blessed Podcast 